Spiritual Implications of Evolution Being True or Not
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There’s been a long-running discussion entitled “What are the empirical data to which evolutionary religions submit?”
Neither side seems to have convinced the other of anything, so I’m going to try to start up a related thread that might generate more light than heat.
Let’s say there isn’t compelling evidence that evolution is a fact. If so, how does that change one’s approach to spiritual growth? Please respond with any ideas you have.
For me, if evolution is a fact it explains a lot about the Nature of God. It means that God is not a super-human engineer who designs the Cosmos like a human would design a machine. At least, not yet. It’s more likely then that the ability of God to function like a human engineer is just now emerging through humanity. This makes a pretty big difference for me. For one, it solves the problem of theodicy (Google it if you’re not familiar with the word). Rather than being just low-life who should always bow down in worship, evolution means (like Jim Marion would say) that I must grow spiritually to someday claim my own divinity and co-creatorship with God, so that, as a joint heir with Jesus of the Kingdom (Rom. 8:17), I will myself know how to manifest on this Earth not only what is needed, but true abundance (John 10:10).
24 Responses
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Charles,
I am afraid you do not come across as a person familiar with how evolution works.
Evolution certainly does NOT present humankind as “an improving animal”. Evolution is not about improvement but about adaptation. There is no direction of evolution. Evolution does not have to lead to increasingly complex forms of life, except if complexity means better adaptation. So in evolutionary terms more complex animals are not “better” than simpler ones – we are all animals.
Your quote from Gen 3:22, 23 appears to suggest that being able to tell right from wrong is bad. I would say it is good. If humans before “the fall” were not able to tell right from wrong, then they cannot be blamed for eating the forbidden fruit. After all they didn’t know whether obeing God was right or wrong.
Moses did NOT write Deuteronomy. We don’t even know if Moses really existed.
What are you trying to suggest by the quote from Romans?
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Loren, brilliant idea! There is no need for arguing or trying to convince each other to “believe”. We’re obviously all trying to achieve different things based on where we’re coming from and what it is we want to accomplish by understanding all of this. This is basically an interfaith dialogue, and we need to keep that in mind. The directions of conversation would better serve us all if we concentrate on common ground issues and how those can move us forward into the future….TOGETHER!
Personally, whether BIOLOGICAL evolution is proved right or wrong is absolutely no matter in my spiritual journey. Someday it may give one side or the other the “I told you so” card, but that shouldn’t matter either. Personal journeys are just that, personal! I can only imagine that the real implications are for those who trust in the Bible as literal truth (or any other ancient text), and live a life committed to interpreting it that way. I don’t walk that line, so not a problem. It should be the deep passion for ALL beings that we have a story for us all to share, and that’s what Michael and Connie are trying to drive home. Much of our current dilemmas on this earth are associated with “religious” differences, and if we can melt those lines with one common, deeply inspiring and meaningful story, then we all win and a great victory will be had for everything from the simplest of organisms here on earth all the way to the edges of the Universe.
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If you make the journey from the Old Story (design and creation) to the New Story (evolution and emergence), does your approach to spiritual growth change? A great question, almost THE question.
My take is that one’s idea of “God” would certainly have to change. Maybe to Michael’s God—the “All,” he says—though I would limit the term to the spiritual aspect of the All. Maybe to a God who comes “up” and “out” rather than a God who comes “down” and “in.” I think the God of the New Story must be uncovered, claimed, and co-created with—as you say, Loren. I agree that this concept of God handles the problem of theodicy.
On the other hand, I don’t think “spirituality” would have to change. One can practice compassion in terms of the Old Story or the New. One can care for the planet in terms of Old or New. One can lose one’s self, move beyond the ego. And, no matter what your story, Old or New, you can become ever more present to the Transcendent. -
Radek, I agree with you. I do not know how evolution works. No one else does either, and that is OK. I disagree with those who have faith in evolution, cannot explain it and then criticize others for not believing it.
What does “survival of the fittest” mean if humankind is not an “improving animal”? Humankind are so improved that we can displace any other species on the planet if we so desire.
Why do you say there is no direction in evolution? Did Tiktaalik move from water to land? Did whales move from land to water? Did running dinosaurs learn how to fly?
Did life evolve in the direction from simple to complex? What about the first organism to appear on earth? Was it as complex as the organisms mentioned in Genesis?
I do not agree with everything the Bible says. No one else does either, and that is OK. I disagree with those who are not Bible students, cannot explain it and then criticize others for not believing as they do.
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Josh, I agree with you… and you said it very well, “Whether BIOLOGICAL evolution is proved right or wrong is absolutely no matter in my spiritual journey”. I think it would be interesting if we can find a “deeply inspiring and meaningful story, then we all win and a great victory will be had for everything from the simplest of organisms here on earth all the way to the edges of the Universe”.
However, when we achieve a consensus, let’s agree NOT to tell the rest of the world that our consensus is a fact. A consensus does not change a faith into a fact.
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Charles,
The “survival of the fittest” is precisely what I said – it is about adjusting to the environment. It’s not about getting “better”. Humans are adapted to living in almost any environment, and we also happen to be quite complex. But cockroaches, rats and ants are even more widespread without being as complex. And the fact that we can displace other species does not work in our favour. If we damage the environment beyond repair, we will go like the dinosaurs before us.
Evolution works in circles – that’s why water animals adjusted to living on land and then land animals went into the water again. Also features like eyes evolved many times over (convergent evolution).
I do not criticise what you believe in (I am all for freedom of conscience). If you believe in a flat earth or alien visits I’m not going to think any less about you as a person. We both look at the available evidence and simply find different arguments convincing.
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Radek, Thank you for your thoughts. I am glad that we agree that humans are “quite complex” and that “cockroaches, rats and ants are even more widespread without being as complex”. I am glad that we agree that evolution has a direction; “Evolution works in circles”. I am glad that we agree that features like eyes are found on many different creatures. And I am glad that we agree not to criticise each other for our beliefs.
You asked a question about Romans 1:22,23. Please read it in your own Bible? What is your understanding of what is written?
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Charles, “when we achieve a consensus, let’s agree NOT to tell the rest of the world that our consensus is a fact. A consensus does not change a faith into a fact.” the only reason i would disagree with this is because that’s what Christians (and every other religions) have been doing since their prophets first insights. the bible has been considered literal truth and fact for over 2000 years…they even have a foundation called FACT. As Michael says, “atheists are modern day prophets”, and although their stand is often a bit radical and harsh, their insights are no less prophetic and insightful than those from 2000 years ago. The difference is that they have more “evidence” than “faith” on their side. Faith based religion will never be abolished, because it to is a stage of personal and societal growth, or evolution. The real issue is whether people could actually lead a MORE meaningful and inspiring life full of effortless integrity based on an evolutionary worldview.
As far as Romans 1:22,23….sounds to me like man is accused of worshiping false gods in place of the one true god, making them “fools”. Seems like a bold statement, given that the same god that the Egyptians worshiped, Horace, had the same story as Jesus. He was born of a virgin who fled the kingdom so her child would not to be killed by jealous king, and then Horace lives a life involving death and resurrection. And this story was no more unique in its day either. The Greeks along with many other cultures were worshiping deities of the “virgin birth, death and resurrection” style, and in many of those stories, their god is depicted as an “animal”, as moses says, which is represented in the bible by adam and eve “worshiping” or listening to the snake, or the devil.
in closing, i still hold that if your current beliefs and practices don’t support a life of impeccable integrity, then you should rethink your faith. if it does support and help you engage in making the world a better place via love and kindness, then keep it up! doesn’t matter if your an atheist, christian, buddhist or evolutionary nut.
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Josh, Thank you for your ideas. How do those ideas change your approach to spiritual growth?
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Charles,
Are you twisting my words on purpose? How can we agree that evolution has a purpose when i say it doesn’t and you say there is no evolution?
In fact, it was you who referred to a passage from Romans. I merely asked why you found it relevant. But since you ask for my thoughts, I think that it pays to read texts in context. I looked up Romans 1 and picked a longer passage:
“18From heaven God shows how angry he is with all the wicked and evil things that sinful people do to crush the truth. ”versenum">19They know everything that can be known about God, because God has shown it all to them. 20God’s eternal power and character cannot be seen. But from the beginning of creation, God has shown what these are like by all he has made. That’s why those people don’t have any excuse. 21They know about God, but they don’t honor him or even thank him. Their thoughts are useless, and their stupid minds are in the dark. 22They claim to be wise, but they are fools. 23They don’t worship the glorious and eternal God. Instead, they worship idols that are made to look like humans who cannot live forever, and like birds, animals, and reptiles.
24So God let these people go their own way. They did what they wanted to do, and their filthy thoughts made them do shameful things with their bodies. 25They gave up the truth about God for a lie, and they worshiped God’s creation instead of God, who will be praised forever. Amen.
26God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things with each other that were not natural. 27Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what has happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds.
28Since these people refused even to think about God, he let their useless minds rule over them. That’s why they do all sorts of indecent things. 29They are evil, wicked, and greedy, as well as mean in every possible way. They want what others have, and they murder, argue, cheat, and are hard to get along with. They gossip, 30say cruel things about others, and hate God. They are proud, conceited, and boastful, always thinking up new ways to do evil.
These people don’t respect their parents. 31They are stupid, unreliable, and don’t have any love or pity for others. 32They know God has said that anyone who acts this way deserves to die. But they keep on doing evil things, and they even encourage others to do them."
My thoughts:
1 Paul talks about the “sinful people” (18).
2. We can interpret God through what we know about the natural world (20).
3. Paul is against worship of “graven images”, as would be expected of a traditionalst Jew (23).
4. God, as understood by Paul, does not care about evil people (30-32).
5. If you respect your parents, have love and pity for others, do not gossip or murder etc., then you are pretty much a good person.
Now will you care to provide your thoughts?
PS.
A good link for evolution observed:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
PPS. Have you read Francis Collins’s “The Language of God”?
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Charles, the ideas themselves are merely part of a bigger picture, which includes evolution, and doesn’t necessarily change my approach, but rather my understanding. My approach has always been one that draws on the ideas, inspirations and practices of many spiritual paths, and my goal has always been to lead a life of impeccable integrity. A life dedicated to bettering myself and those around me. Looking deeply into myself and investigating all of my relationships, personal and professional, and understanding to the best of my ability how I’ve contributed to their current condition and how I can make them better. My approach involves being an integral part of THIS life, and it’s effect on the future of life both here and throughout the universe. My approach does NOT include fear of a vengeful God, regret or shame about humanity or my self’s past, or the idea of a glorious future in a wonderful afterlife or an eternity of suffering in hell.
Radek, maybe you have some insight on the spiritual implications of evolution being true or not true? Does it change or enhance your experience of the world? What if, just for argument sake, biological evolution were proven to be not true?
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Radek, Thank you for investing the time to study the Bible. As you can read, there is a lot of valuable ideas that apply to humans today. Your 5 thoughts are clearly stated and there is no way to twist them. Please re-read what each of us has said and I think that you will agree that we are closer to a consensus than it may have seemed at first. The link you provided is very interesting and does help to summarize what evolutionists teach.
I have not read “The Language of God”. Maybe you can find a few quotes to share with us… as it applies to TGFE. If it doesn’t, maybe we can meet at another discussion group.
Josh, I truly believe you when you say that you try to lead a life of impeccable integrity and to better yourself and those around you. I am glad that you do not fear a vengeful God. 1 John 4:8.
There is no reason to feel that you or anyone else is going to be punished for being human. Acts 24:15 There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
I wish that the Bible thumping evangelists would stop preaching about their misunderstanding of hell. The Apostles’ Creed says that Jesus descended into hell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles%27_Creed
Good dead people do not go to a place of eternal suffering. Hell is mankind’s common grave. Hell is “sheol” in the Hebrew scriptures and “hades” in the Greek scriptures. http://unbound.biola.edu/
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Thank you Charles! your comments are a testament to your commitment to understanding the bible in a positive and life inspiring way. i can only imagine that the same commitment shines through in your daily life and your relations with others. that’s the kind of integrity that i speak of, and whether you achieve that kind of authenticity through Christianity, Buddhism, Sufism or by being an outright Atheist…how can you argue with that?
so, Charles, i’m curious to hear your thoughts now…what would the implications be for you if Biological Evolution were proven true or false?
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Josh, Thank you for asking. When we talk about beliefs, it’s like a belly button— we all have one. And we are free to believe ANYTHING. We do not need proof for a belief.
However, when we get into the area of FACTS or EMPIRICAL DATA, we often jump to an incorrect conclusion that irritates someone’s belief system. For example, it is a fact that the sun rises, travels across the sky, sets below the horizon and rises the next day. We believe that the sun revolves around the earth— an incorrect conclusion.
That incorrect conclusion confused ancient astronomers. The sun behaved as predicted. The moon was used to keep track of seasons. Usually 12 moons made up a year, but sometimes 13 moons were needed to “catch up”. The stars all moved together but took a day longer than the sun to total a year. It took careful observations, but everything was predictable… except for the “wanderers”… the planets.
Copernicus put together the mathematics necessary to predict the location of each planet at any given time. His calculations were simplified by assuming that the planets and the earth revolved around the sun. That was not a problem for the Catholic Church; they still concluded that the earth was the center of the universe.
Galileo is the one who caused the theological crisis with his telescope. He observed the IMPOSSIBLE; there were 4 moons revolving around Jupiter… and not the earth.
Before Darwin there were others who had the idea that all living creatures were related. No problem if we assume that God created everything. But when Darwin suggested that apes and humans had a common ancestor, he was talking about the IMPOSSIBLE for some belief systems.
The study of evolution is helpful in our understanding of the current condition of the earth. As long as we report the FACTS with EMPIRICAL DATA, it all makes sense. “Why Evolution is True” by Jerry A Coyne is a great book to bring us up to date with the current thinking of evolutionists.
However, he makes an incorrect conclusion— there is no creator.
Thanks to the Internet, I am able to “look over the shoulder” of scientists and theologians. Neither side has a COMPLETE understanding of how the present condition of the earth came to be.
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"Neither side has a COMPLETE understanding of how the present condition of the earth came to be." and this is why an Integral approach is so critical in ALL of our progressive thinking and analysis of ourselves and the universe. we can’t discredit any perspective, because they are all pieces to a greater picture.
However, you still haven’t addressed the issue of how all of this information would affect your approach to spiritual growth if proven wrong or right. opinions are opinions and beliefs aren’t much different, but your approach to spiritual growth can survive and thrive without “beliefs”. what i’m getting at is this…a 14billion yr old earth and evolution could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but that doesn’t mean that you have to stop living a Christ-like life according to the bible. it just means that the bible truly is a metaphor, and not literal. on the other hand, it could mean that you drop the bible altogether and move on to some other form of spiritual inspiration…or become an atheist!
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Josh, To say that the Bible is ametaphor is one of those incorrect conclusions. No one has proof of it. However, it is OK for you to have that opinion.
As a Bible student, I can only say that concepts like the Trinity or a place of eternal punishment are not taught in the Bible. I can prove that the Bible says that God created the heavens and the earth. There is proof that it is written in the Bible. Who knows what the writers were thinking or what their agenda was?
Do you think that TGFE is only a metaphor? I will accept whatever proof is presented in good faith. I am still seeking the answers to the evolution questions. The only label that seems to fit me is “Bible and evolution student”. I have no idea when absolute proof will be forthcoming.
Stay tuned. Today I found some more interesting empirical data.
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I have found proof that science is against evolution.
http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v12i9f.htm
In his book, “Why Evolution is True”, Jerry A Coyne tells us on page 24 that “Several radio-isotopes usually occur together, so the dates can be cross-checked, and the ages invariably agree”.
Why would a scientist tell us something that is not true?
Evolutionists say that the moon is 4.43 billion years old. Scientists computed the age of the Apollo 11 moon rocks 116 times using different methods. Of those 116 dates, only 10 of them fall into the range of 4.3 to 4.56 billion years. However, 106 do not show the “correct” age.
Their findings were presented at the Apollo 11 Lunar Science Conference and the complete proceedings were published in the January 30, 1970, issue of Science… not some crackpot creationist magazine. That was forty years ago and “real scientists” have no excuse for not knowing the truth.
Why don’t more scientists know about the scientific failings of the theory of evolution? Why is it that most people who have a problem with the theory of evolution seem to be Christians? What about the Islamic nations? http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v12i9e.htm .
Maybe we should ask evolutionists why they believe evolution is true. Is it just because they do not believe in religion?
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Charles, probably should have posted that in your “empirical” thread. it appears to have completely missed the point of this threads topic.
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Josh, Thanks for the heads up. I posted it on the “empirical” thread.
It still bothers me that Jerry A Coyne would claim that radio-isotope dates are cross-checked and invariably agree when he knows that the age of the moon data contradicts what he claimed.
Evolution presents modern man as an improving animal. The Bible presents modern man as the degenerating descent of a perfect man (male and female). God made males and females to have a free will, but many of us have plans that are different from God’s plans. Ecclesiastes 7:29
Our fall from perfection explains why we often disappoint ourselves, even though we want to do what is good. Paul wrote: “What I wish, this I do not practice; but what I hate is what I do”. Romans 7:15
God said, “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad” and to prevent males and females from living “to time indefinite”, they were put out of the garden of Eden to cultivate the land. Genesis 3:22, 23
The idea that God directed evolution is incompatible with what the Bible says about God’s personality. If God guided the process of evolution, it would mean that he guided mankind into its present diseased and distressed state. Moses wrote that people “acted ruinously on their own part; the defect is their own”. Deuteronomy 32:4,5
The Bible reveals something about our “being human”. “There will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. 2Timothy 4:3,4
Paul said, “Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed creatures and creeping things. Romans 1:22,23