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Agnostics and TGFE
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TGFE page 26: “The Great Story is not a new religion in competition with existing religions; rather, it offers a metareligious perspective that can deepen the profound insights of every one of earth’s spiritual traditions.”
Page 310: “…the devout will come to see and experience their own core insights, their central doctrines, as larger, more meaningful, and more undeniably real than anyone could have known before. … Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and others will move from flat-earth interpretations of their respective faith traditions to evolutionary interpretations.”
What about agnostics? (atheists, humanists, freethinkers, non-religious, etc). We have no traditions or central doctrines. My initial thought was that we are at a disadvantage in that we have nothing to start from, nothing to interpret, nothing to wrap an evolutionary worldview around. On the other hand, maybe starting from a blank slate could be an advantage in that we have no rigid literalist tradition or doctrine as an obstacle.
Your thoughts?
What are the different challenges that religious and non-religious paths will have in getting to this point (quote from page 129): “Yet both theist and atheist perspectives on creatheism celebrate the awesome, ultimately mysterious cosmic creativity that resides within and everywhere around them. “
8 Responses
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In TGFE, the section titled “Experiencing God Versus Thinking About God”, pages 105-107, seem to be appropriate to this discussion.
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Loren, thank you for responding. Maybe I should have started the discussion with this: I haven’t experienced God from an evolutionary perspective and would like to discuss the different paths towards that goal.
I’m guessing that in general agnostics will have a harder time getting off the ground. What made me think of that was seeing just how much of TGFE is devoted to interpreting Christian faith to fit with a sacred evolutionary view.
Also, when I first saw the concept of a meta-religious perspective in TGFE I had the automatic thought that moving to a sacred evolutionary view will be naturally easier if there is a religion there to start from. But that’s not necessarily true.
One case where being non-religious might be a better place to start would be if you compare an agnostic with a religious person who is not a Christian (doesn’t have Michael’s incredible interpretation as a guide) and is having trouble making the connection between his doctrine and evolution.
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Here’s a take from someone steeped in religious traditions, Catholic all my life, adding Anabaptist this past year, and very interested in interfaith/inter-spirituality issuess. From my standpoint, the gift of agnosticism is what you say—“starting from a blank slate.” The gift is fresh eyes.
Lately, I’ve been wondering what would have happened if religion had come on the scene AFTER science and reason. There would have been no theists, no atheists. At some point I imagine someone leaning over to me and saying, “Did you see that?” And I’d say, “Yeah, what’s going on?” Whatever it was, it would have something to do with spirit. I’d want to explore it with fresh and open eyes.
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What about the soul? By soul, I refer to the non-physical intelligent mind of man (as I see the soul) that is theorized by many to continue to exist and evolve following physical death, which I have accepted as fact (due to a fully conscious, once only, out-of body experience.) I’m only half-way through the reading of TFGE, so perhaps this questions is addressed eventually, and I’m jumping the gun here. I am an avid Edgar Cayce student and as such, I am intensely interested in Cayce’s story of the evolution of the human soul, which according to Cayce, incarnates many times into a human body. That we (our bodies) are made of stardust, I can readily fathom, but what of our souls? It is our souls which carry memories of the origin of our universe, according to Cayce, that were made in the image of God. Interestingly enough, it was at the A.R.E. bookstore in Virginia Beach (Cayce’s organizational headquarters) where I discovered and purchased the book, TGFE. Perhaps as I continue reading TGFE, I will be able to synthesize the two evolutionary epics. By the way, while I am a Christian by faith, in that I try to follow the teachings of Jesus, the Christ; here in the South, I have always been somewhat of a doubting Thomas, and accutely aware, owing to my previous career as a language teacher, that the Bible cannot be taken 100% literally. Unfortunately,as is well known, in the South, most Christians do still accept the Bible as practically dictated word for word by God himself! Incidentally, I think I have always had a bit of the “nested doll” image of who and what God is, so I very much like that analogy by Michael. It is this concept that allows one (in my opinion) to have a very personal relationship with God. I would like to hear Michael and Connie’s perspective on Edgar Cayce’s work, if they are aware of it. I would love to hear how they feel about this possibility of evolution of the soul through reincarnation, side by side with “stardust evolution.”
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Janice,
Great question! Actually, TGFE does not delve into this area at all. The reason being, I believe, that at this point science has not yet been able to measure or observe the soul in a reliable, reproducible manner. Therefore, the ideas you talk about are still in the realm of “private revelation”. What’s interesting, however, is that many people from all over the earth seem to have private revelations regarding the soul which are very similar.
My favorite author on this subject is Jim Marion. See this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Putting-Mind-Christ-Christian-Spirituality/dp/157174357X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1243127450&sr=8-1In this book he describes with astonishing accuracy the stages of spiritual awareness that I’ve already been through. The stages are: Archaic, Magical, Mythic, Rational, and Vision-Logic (where I’m currently at). I identify with everything he says about these stages. Then he goes on to describe further stages of development beyond where I’m currently at: Psychic, Subtle, Causal, and Non-dual. Apparently he doesn’t like some of the names these stages have been given, but he’s willing to accept the names given by Ken Wilber so that we can begin to have a common language for the spiritual roadmap.
Anyway, his description of the stages beyond where I’m at sound like nonsensical fantasy (which is what atheism sounds like to a fundamentalist). But I can’t discount what he says because of his lucid description of the earlier stages. So I’m keeping an open mind, hoping that if I begin to engage in spiritual practices on a regular basis, I will mature to the point of finding out for myself what the stages beyond vision-logic are like.
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Loren,
Thank you for your response and reading suggestion. I will certainly add Jim Marion’s book to my “to read” list, and I will finish my reading of TGFE, which I am probably reading more slowly than any book I’ve ever read! The wealth of information included just in the notes is incredible. I think you have made me realize that I’m definitely still in a “private revelation mode” even as I read about public revelation. The specific private revelation that came to me in a “living color” vision while in a conscious waking OBE state in 1997 remains totally clear today, as new insights into the revelation continue as well.) While TGFE seeks to bridge the narrowing gap between science and religion; I so hope that somehow, eventually, more about private revelations may come in, although I can see how problematic this might be as they cannot be scientifically studied. I just somehow feel an absence of any kind of empahsis on the individual “soul aspect” or identity of ourselves as spiritual beings of eternal ever evolving mind/soul conscious “children of God,” if you will; who currently inhabit a physical body that originated from stardust! I feel that the physical evolution of living bodies and spiritual evolution of individual mind/souls are actually occurring simultaneously and will eventually need to be discussed together, but that may just have to come a long time from now, as I can see that it might be mind-boggling for some to just wrap their minds around the science/religion bond alone.Yet to ignore the latter, to me, diminishes the relevance of the first.At any rate, I definitely agree that deeper understanding of the science/religion courtship must continue as technology continues to advance at an ever-increasing speed. It is time for advancement toward a one-world view of religion (which too few seem to understand is man-made), or at least acceptance of the major religions as valid. TGFE and TGFM&CD!
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Janice wrote: “I so hope that somehow, eventually, more about private revelations may come in…”
I was thinking about something similar (well, sort of similar), formulating a question along the lines of: is God as discussed in TGFE – as the Wholeness of Reality – too distant? Karen Armstrong, in her book A Short History of Myth, wrote:
“But a very early development showed that mythology would fail if it spoke of a reality that was too transcendent. If a myth does not enable people to participate in the sacred in some way, it becomes remote and fades from their consciousness.”
God seen as the Ultimate Wholeness of Reality is important because of its accuracy- but also possibly too distant. An evolutionary perspective, being meta-religious, should in theory leave room for private revelation.
I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior when I was 12 years old. I still remember the pure Joy of being right with God. It lasted for several months. Unfortunately, the teen years got the best of me and I backslid. I tried to recommit myself to Christ at age 20, but I just couldn’t make sense of Christian literalist theology, and ended up becoming an atheist. Ever since then, I’ve been trying to find the spiritual experiences and sheer joy I had at age 12, to no avail.
Until, that is, I read TGFE. What a relief to finally find God again at age 50, and this time with a theology that is bullet proof!
So, for a person who’s always been in the category of “atheists, humanists, freethinkers, non-religious, etc)”, I don’t know what to say. For a person who’s never had an experience of God, how can we convey what it’s all about? I don’t know.